Restorative justice is one of the more dangerously immoral values of the liberal class, and every once in a while it surfaces in our legal system to the shock and horror of many. The latest example, taking into account the aboriginal upbringing of a violent child rapist in sentencing, is just about as sickening as it can possibly get.
A career criminal, who has preyed on society his entire life, kidnapped and raped a 6-year-old girl after abducting her from a Winnipeg playground. Greg Hope, 35, pleaded guilty to the abhorrent act, but will now wait for a court-ordered report to study what, if any, effect his aboriginal background might have had on his actions, and whether it deserves more leniency.
Think about this for a moment. The victim is a 6-year-old girl, an age of innocence and vulnerability. There isn’t a reason that could possibly be given to could provide even the slightest sympathy or understanding for a 35-year-old to do that.
It isn’t as though this is some wanton decision by a liberal judge trying to make a statement about the difficulty facing aboriginals in modern-day Canada. If there is any blame to go around, it belongs to the Supreme Court, which binds all decisions made to lower courts, for stating that some aboriginal offenders should receive more lenient sentences based on the hardships they endured in life. The lower courts have no choice but to adhere to follow the precedent.
This belief has been reinforced in judgments before. Darnell Darcy Pratt, the remorseless kid who, at the age of 16, decided to turn a night of drinking into a murder, had his sentence reduced on appeal. Pratt dragged 24-year-old Esso station employee Grant De Patie for eight kilometres under the stolen car he was driving, a murder that has since resulted in “Grant’s Law”, requiring drivers to pay before they pump gasoline.
Although he was originally sentenced to nine years in prison, a B.C. Court of Appeal looked at his case and felt his aboriginal ancestry and his exposure to family drug addiction deserved a reduced sentence.
Social workers had taken him from his mother when he was 12 because she was a crystal meth addict and placed him with his aunt. Two months before the murder, he ran away because his aunt tried to stop him from getting drunk all the time, so he went to live with his grandmother. He continued to drink regularly while committing petty theft with his friends.
So where does that place the responsibility for aboriginal criminals in our society? Well, somewhere below that of everybody else. A kid who drags someone below his car for eight kilometres deserves nine years in prison, but only seven if they’re aboriginal. Now the question is, how much of a reduced sentence does a child rapist get if he’s aboriginal?
After all, prison makes aboriginal men worse according to testimony heard before The House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women when it stopped in Winnipeg.
One woman present at the hearing, Karen Chevillard, wore a t-shirt reading, “Decolonize yourself. Break the racist pattern.”
“They want to build more jails and if they build more jails, it will be genocide for our families,” she added.
Racist pattern? What part, exactly, did racism play when a 35-year-old aboriginal man decided to have sexual intercourse with a 6-year-old girl?
Genocide? Here’s a thought. Stop committing crimes against society, and there won’t be any more family breakups.
The justice system has one obligation to the people and one obligation only. That is to protect society from dangerously violent offenders who rape, assault and murder people. The background of the perpetrator is irrelevant in the context of the decision to harm another person. As the expression used to go, “yeah, tell it to the judge.” But today that might not be a good idea.
This is what happens when we have a two tier justice system in our country.
Welcome to Canada.
It’s the Liberal mind frame that makes aboriginals/immigrants more special, more entitled than any other Canadian. Aren’t they crying for poor Kadar to be sent to Canada?
A rapist of a 6 year old should get no breaks. Period. Stop. Put him in the general prison population and see how justice is done.
SCC Stupid Court of Canada.
That’s the other thing. Usually they go into PC don’t they?
#1 reason why aboriginals are disproportionately represented in prisons. they are a neutered portion of our population, made that way by govt entitlements and welfare. they are given money to exist only, enough so that the need to provide for their families becomes less important. with nothing to do except exist, what should be positive traits such as a job or education, inventiveness, is replaced with the negative attributes of complacency, loss of dignity, laziness.
the aboriginal population was once a very proud and independent race, now today reduced to nothing more than beggars in govt funded hell holes, run by their own people who will sellout their own culture to make a living for themselves.
“The justice system has one obligation to the people and one obligation only. That is to protect society from dangerously violent offenders who rape, assault and murder people.”
Actually, no. The justice system is the venue where the state exacts retribution against an offender. The parties to the action are the state and the offender. Protecting the public has nothing to do with it. If you want to protect the public you have to look elsewhere, or you have to change the justice system entirely.
In any event, as per usual you have your facts wrong, and you are creating a scenario and then being outraged at your own creation.
Here is an excerpt from an SCC decision regarding a sexual assault conviction and what effect the offender’s background had on the sentence:
R. v. Wells, 2000 SCC 10, [2000] 1 S.C.R. 207
“While the objective of restorative justice, by virtue of s. 718.2(e), applies to all offenders, the requirement to pay “particular attention to the circumstances of aboriginal offenders” recognizes that most traditional aboriginal conceptions of sentencing hold restorative justice to be the primary objective. In addition, s. 718.2(e) has a particular remedial purpose for aboriginal peoples, as it was intended to address the serious problem of overincarceration of aboriginal offenders in Canadian penal institutions. While s. 718.2(e) requires a different methodology for assessing a fit sentence for an aboriginal offender, it does not necessarily mandate a different result. Section 718.2(e) does not alter the fundamental duty of the sentencing judge to impose a sentence that is fit for the offence and the offender. Furthermore, the application of s. 718.2(e) does not mean that aboriginal offenders must always be sentenced in a manner which gives greatest weight to the principles of restorative justice and less weight to goals such as deterrence, denunciation, and separation. It was accordingly open to the sentencing judge to give primacy to the principles of denunciation and deterrence in this case on the basis that the crime involved was a serious one.”
There is a two tiered system of justice in this country, which is why the SCC decided Gladue the way they did – because they recognized the entrenched and systemic discrimination against Aboriginals led to Aboriginals being disadvantaged, and therefore over represented in our penal system.
As far as this goes:
“Restorative justice is one of the more dangerously immoral values of the liberal class…”
I say this:
http://www.beyondintractability.org/essay/restorative_justice
Now maybe you are truly against a system of justice that allows victims to play a role, and allows victims an opportunity to heal, but I think a lot of victims who have gone through the process (which they do only if they agree to participate) would disagree with you.
There is no “overincarceration” of aboriginals in prisons any more than there is an overhockeyation of white guys in the NHL.
You’re either a child rapist or you aren’t. Being native has nothing to do with it.
Now maybe some people, like yourself, want to give two-tiered rights to rapists, but I don’t.
Sigh…
There IS over-incarceration of Aboriginals, and simply plugging your ears and saying “na na na” over and over again is not going to stop that from being true.
As for your second “point”, it seems clear to me you either did not read the passage I quoted or you do not understand it. I will make it simpler for you. The Supreme Court of Canada is saying that serious crimes should result in serious punishment, notwithstanding the fact that the offender is Aboriginal. You have taken the mere fact that a Gladue report is being prepared for sentencing to mean this offender is going to get a slap on the wrist for his offence. You are fabricating this scenario, since no one knows what the report will say and whether or not it will affect the sentence. Maybe hold off on the outrage until you do know.
By the way, in the case I quoted the SCC upheld the prison term for an Aboriginal offender who was convicted of sexual assault, notwithstanding the contents of the Gladue report.
What does that mean, “over-incarceration” of aboriginals? You’re not making sense. Police don’t arrest them because they don’t like them. They arrest them because they’re robbing, raping and killing people.
And I’m fabricating nothing, Gayle, as I backed up with the evidence of the car dragger who got 7 years because of his skin colour.
We live in a racist society, Gayle, and it’s perpetuated by people like yourself and the liberals who infect the Supreme Court.
Gayle,
The term “over-incarceration” implies presuppositions that are erroneous. Whenever a subset of the population (e.g. 3.2% of the population) is seen in a larger proportion (say in university where they may be 15.0% of the student population) the claim can be, erroneously, made that the subset is over-represented. The presuppositions include but are not limited to:
1. all groups should have the same distribution within them that the whole population has
2. any deviation from the whole population distribution is ipso facto proof of discrimination for or against whichever group is of interest
To say that aboriginals are over-incarcerated is making these two erroneous assumptions. In the interests of fairness though I will grant you your claim if you also state that the reason is that aboriginal population is overly criminal – for whatever reason. I thought not.
Hi gerry
While your analysis amuses me, there has been a lot written on this subject by people who know what they are talking about. I will listen to them.
Thanks anyway.
Here you go.
http://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=canada+aboriginals+over+incarceration&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart
And you are jumping to the conclusion that the reduction in sentence in one case means it will happen in all, which, as I have demonstrated, is simply and utterly untrue.
The “elephant” concerning Indians,is that a lot of them are born with FAS, but to admit to that,Indian politicians would have to admit to very much neglect of their own people, so it’s never mentioned,and anyone who does speak up about it is a racist.
I believe this fact is one important reason for so many Indians being incarcerated. If you live amongst Indians,as I have for about 60 some -odd years, you get to see the alcohol abuse up close and personal.
Most Indians I know are decent folks when sober,but go “Indian” when drunk,completely crazy. I have no proof,other than watching Indians I know perform when drunk, and I haven’t done a “study”, but I’d bet a good portion of the crimes committed by Indians is done when they’re drunk.
One positive step in reducing the Indian rates of incarceration would be to conduct a massive “sobering up” campaign,and get the Indians off the booze. But,again, to suggest Indians have a problem that isn’t exactly equal to any other Race is …..RACISM!
btw,Gayle’s link to “Restorative Justice” MUST be read by everyone here! It’s another of those lovely liberal progressive theories,that only works occasionally in practice.
Sometimes, I am astounded by the fact some people can post utter nonsense that is easily disproved with one quick Google search.
I have done a lot of work in the area of FASD. I can assure you that Aboriginal communities are on the front lines of this issue, and are desperate to find a way to end the cycle. Here is what a quick Google search will produce:
http://www.asantecentre.org/aboriginal.html
http://www.nccah-ccnsa.ca/86/Knowledge_Gaps__FASD.nccah
http://fasdjustice.on.ca/aboriginal-peoples-and-fasd/
http://aboriginalactnow.ca/s_23.asp
The sad fact is that alcoholism amongst Aboriginal communities, while a long time issue, became out of control with the advent of residential schools. Being removed from their families and the only communities they have ever known and being forced to live in a foreign world where many were sexually abused by the people who were supposed to look after them has resulted in alcoholism and other substance abuse. This of course has been the legacy these people have left to their children (did you know that if you have FASD you are more vulnerable to alcohol dependency yourself, not to mention the fact that should be obvious to anyone that if the adults in your life are alcoholics then this is the life you know, and the behaviour you model).
So, while I just love the whole “Indians are all worthless alcoholics” diatribe above, it ignores the real elephant in the room – abuse and poverty.
Though I must say I did love the clever and intelligent rebuttal to the information on restorative justice. Some evidence that it only works occasionally would be nice. Frankly I wonder why that even matters? Are you suggesting that because only some victims felt well served by the process means we should simply abandon it? Why are you so willing to dismiss the rights of victims?
http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=6ef8a072-4acc-4258-8dfd-3d77e21dcb47
But I suppose this does not matter. This family, who suffered for years as a result of their father’s death and not knowing who was responsible, this family participated in a restorative justice program and found peace.
I guess we should simply discount them, their experiences and their pain, because, you know, some people think this is just a lefty feel good initiative. God knows we should not bother caring about what the victims want.
And hey, that 40% decrease in recidivism in Australia should be ignored too I guess.
Bottom line to the justice system is what every mother of a large family already knows.
If you do not treat all you children with the same dicipline and respect there will be a price to pay when they get older. Making excuses for bad actions will only lead to more bad actions. One of the major problems is there is nothing to fear from the justice system. 3 good meals a day and all the recreation one can handle is not anything that would give anyone pause before committing a crime. Throw in special status because you are native and many extra programs, as well as abundant number of like minded peers and life in the can is often better than it was at home or on the street.
As for the victims……back of the bus.
You’re an artful dodger Gayle. But Gerry is right. You haven’t answered why you think all groups should have equal distribution as a portion of the population. If aboriginals are over-represented in prisons it isn’t because the legal system aims for a high quota, but because aboriginals are committing a disproportionate number of crimes.
Three things:
First, caution on simply blaming everything on the courts. Lord knows they get stuff wrong all the time, but it’s not that simple, and shooting your mouths off about it as you have doesn’t really help your case.
The Courts aren’t considering the victim’s Aboriginal background because they’re a bunch of touchy-feely hippies. They’re doing it because a) it’s the law. They have to consider it, or their conclusion risks being no good; and b) it’s their fucking job to analyze and clarify the application of the law. Particularly if one party raises that issue in appeal circumstances (and I note that it was Wells who did it in Wells), they *have* to address it. It’s like faulting the cop who tickets you when you have open booze. Yeah, it sucks, but it’s not like he’s specifically doing it because he’s a puritanical jerk. He’s just applying ancient liquor laws that your elected officials refuse to change.
Same thing in this case. The judge may very well be wrong for other reasons, but simply considering the accused’s Aboriginal background is not one of them. He *has* to. If he doesn’t, it’ll just get overturned (or at least, appealed). It’s like taking out your frustration with BP on the guy at the gas station.
Blame Parliament, which has enacted (and left in place) that section of the Code.
2) Does anyone else find this law particularly Orwellian? I find it essentially presumes that being Aboriginal predisposes one to violence, which I note is a theory that largely seemed confined to Dixie until the 1960s or so. I know the defenders would probably say that considering the accused’s Aboriginal background is meant to consider the ways the cops could screw the accused or pre-judge him as an offender on that basis.
Of course, two strikingly inconvenient problems for that hypothesis are that a) The law sure isn’t written that way, and such an interpretation is completely against almost every modern principle of interpretation, and b) the entire process of a fair trial is meant to weed out bullshit accusations to begin with, which is actually kind of a huge deal in legal circles.
3) I wonder if people who use demographic and social factors to explain the injustice in disproportionately heavy Aboriginal populations in prison are equally enthusiastic about applying such theories to explain why so many damn men are sent to prison.
When did I say the legal system sets a high quota?
There is plenty of expert opinion on this. I will take it over yours. Especially since it is painfully obvious you have not bothered to even do a minimal amount of research. There is a reason why all levels of government, courts, and correction systems agree Aboriginals are over incarcerated. Maybe read up on it and educate yourself.
Assuming you are a law abiding citizen, why is that the case? If the justice system is as easy as you say, what restrains you from being a criminal?
I know they’re doing it because it’s the law. It’s the law that I have my problem with. I acknowledged that the judges are bound by the law, but the Supreme Court have the opportunity to set precedent.
Look what I wrote above:
Stuff and nonsense, Gayle. Typical liberal apologist for criminality.
Heh. I guess it is easier to cast aspersions on my motives than it is to actually research your topic.
Same old same old.
And the current government has the ability to legislate what the SCC said on the topic out of existence.
Simply being raised with some moral values and learning right from wrong. With consequences for doing the wrong thing , long before you reach the teen years.
I think Gayle, that you have overlooked the crime while focussing upon the perpetrator. Or perhaps, focussed upon the perpetrators heritage while conveniently ignoring the victim. In this case, a six year old.
There is no doubt that our natives have suffered horrifically at our hands and they have become dependant upon our gifts of guilt monies to assuage our guilt and address their issues. But money alone will not begin to assist those who are most vulnerable. Nevertheless, to throw away a form of consequences for actions is something no one can condone. What options are there if not incarceration? Re-education? You can only teach those who will be taught.
http://journal.cpha.ca/index.php/cjph/article/viewFile/1079/1079
Google this one,”Gayle” it says the FAS rates are high in their study.
Don’t bother with your “Google” cut and paste. I’ve lived amongst Indians /Natives /Aboriginals all my life and have seen the effects of booze and drugs first hand. None of the Indians I know would commit a crime when NOT under the influence,Natives aren’t any more prone to crime than anyone else.
Your assertion that I called Indians,”a bunch of worthless drunks” is pure liberal bullshit!
The biggest problem facing Indians today is “studies” by “experts” that like to paint a politically correct picture.
I followed every one of your links,they prove nothing. And of course, SOME Bands are trying to get a grip on the booze/drug problems, but far too many Indian politicians are only giving lip service to it.
The only person in the Native Industry I have seen who really gives a rat’s ass about the Native people,and tried to recommend real changes,is Chief Clarence Louis of the Osoyoos Band.
The problem with Natives making up a disproportionate percentage of the prison population is not going to go away because some experts recommend “cultural sensitivity”.
Natives have to be brought out from under the loving care of The Great White Father in Ottawa,and make real efforts to enter the world we have created off the Rez’s, but too many Indian politicians prefer the status quo,and are unwilling to give up their perks.
Liberal apologists like you,”Gayle” perpetuate the problem,and your attacks with Google copy and paste simply lead to more liberal verbiage that does nothing to help anybody but the grant recipient for the studies.
You can link to an example of damned near anything on Google, but exceptions prove nothing. When the Native populations on welfare rolls and in prison lower dramatically,then I’ll believe your methods work better than anyone else’s.
Well said. Chief Clarence Louis gives hope to a otherwise dismal continuation of failed policies.
I believe you. That is, in fact, the real reason why some people commit crimes and some do not. Punishment has nothing to do with it. You are either given this moral code or you are not. Generally it is modelled for us by our own parents and responsible adults in our lives. When parents are part of a cycle of violence, addiction and despair, that is the behaviour they model for their children.
So you see, this notion of yours that people commit crime because they have nothing to fear from the justice system is contradicted by your own experience.
“I think Gayle, that you have overlooked the crime while focussing upon the perpetrator. Or perhaps, focussed upon the perpetrators heritage while conveniently ignoring the victim. In this case, a six year old.”
And I think you have not bothered to read a single thing I have written, such as this:
“The Supreme Court of Canada is saying that serious crimes should result in serious punishment, notwithstanding the fact that the offender is Aboriginal.”
In other words, it seems pretty clear to me that serious crimes should get a serious consequence.
Hmmm
Perhaps you need to learn to read better. I agree that FASD (FAS is a clinical diagnosis for a particular disorder, FASD refers to the spectrum of disorders that are caused by prenatal exposure to alcohol) is a serious problem with our Native population. What I disagree with is your assertion that Aboriginal groups are not taking this seriously, which is simply not borne out by the facts.
So while your own personal experience is interesting, it is simply anecdotal information. The actual fact is that Aboriginal groups are taking a leading role in addressing the problem of FASD, which should not come as a surprise since it is causing so much pain and poverty amongst their population.
You can pretend that systematic racism plays no role in the plight of our Native population if you want. It is certainly easier for you to point fingers and tell people to just “get over it”, but that is actually what we have been doing in this country for decades. Throwing money at a problem is not the solution. Working with the communities to help them find an answer is. That will also cost money, by the way.
My own experience comes from working in BC Pen for 2 years in the 70s.
Then I saw it as :
about 70% are salvagable as human beings.
about 20 % will be back again and again and…..
the other 10% are not worth what they flush down the toilet daily.
I doubt if the numbers have changed if I were to revisit my earlier vocation. The strongest impression I was left with is that some people are just human garbage and all the do-gooders and social workers in the world wont change them.
Sure. None of that counters anything I said.
It all counters what you have said. From what I have seen on your replies you will not accept any answer to anything. You have a overwhelming need to have the last word.
That is funny indeed, however what I said was we learn our moral code from the people who raised us. This is the reason you gave for the fact you are not a criminal.
How does pointing out that you believe 70% of prisoners are redeemable, and the rest are not, counter what I said?
You have basically agreed that the vast majority of criminals can be rehabilitated (and thank for that!). The one’s who cannot, the ones who will be involved in the justice system for life, they are the ones without a moral code.
Gayle acknowledges that FASD is a greater problem among Indians than among the rest of us. I have posted this elsewhere but, I’ll repeat it. If Greg Hope suffers from FASD (and his record strongly suggests that he does) he should never be allowed to walk free again as he is a loaded gun ready to go off.
He’s also a threat to fellow prisoners and prison staff, and the most desireable solution for all concerned (Hope included) would be to “put him down” but, our culture and our laws don’t allow it. Make no mistake, if he lived in the sort of tribal culture that so many Canadian romantics love to laud, he’d be dead in a heartbeat.
I love when people just make stuff up. Your total ignorance of FASD is astounding.
I agree with that. Some people who have FASD are very dangerous because the nature of their brain damage, coupled with their exposure to abuse and neglect as children, means they have virtually no moral compass at all.
Your suggestion, however, that everyone who has FASD is dangerous, a threat, and needs to be “put down” is offensive, and exposes your ignorance of the nature of the disorder.
Read up on it and get back to me.
Arrogant, immature twit. Who said that “everyone” who has FASD is a threat? Try taking a remedial reading course.
You said this guy was a threat to guards and inmates because he has FASD. Pardon me for taking your comments literally and to their logical conclusion.
Maybe just try being clear next time.